I could argue with you its_phil like pointing out he only had 8 weeks left of a contract which he would have gotten if he negotiated his resignation sparing the non-confrontational IRFU a sacking and has already being tapped up to run the UCC sports division but I don't care enough about your opinion

connachtexile wrote: Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. That they had to fire you as you wouldn't resign speaks volumes.

What does it say about him? That he is doing what he is entitled to do and rightly so. You can honestly say you would walk away from a well paid job with a family to look after without a severance package? He has a family to support too, why should he give up money he is entitled to?

Based on EOS struggles to find work after Ireland, he should be looking after every penny.

Best of luck Deccie, still the most succesful coach Ireland has ever produced but it was time.

connachtexile wrote: Hopefully Kiss uses the North American tour to blood new players.

Hopefully he won't have any choice with a good few in Australia ... hopefully ...

Bottom line is he was given the rope, and instead of corralling the talent that is still out there into an effectively performing unit he ended up hanging himself. I don't like to see coaches sacked personally, but this situation (much like the Bradley one with us) just highlights once again the need for the professional arms of Irish Rugby to be managed by professional administrators with a rugby background and not the legacy commitee men left over from the amatuer era....

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. That they had to fire you as you wouldn't resign speaks volumes. As for Les Kiss....

Anyway the only part about the story I found interesting was this

Bookies have installed Queensland Reds coach Ewen McKenzie as favourite to take the job.

Hopefully Kiss uses the North American tour to blood new players.

Thanks for your service to irish rugby at all levels and the success that service delivered. Best of luck in the future deccie.

kidney wont get a new contract and les kiss will take over for summer tour.

McKenzie would be a great catch and is an old buddy of Les Kiss. Cheika has declared he will be staying with the Waratah's.

Report on Journal.ie that Ewan McKenzie is leaving Queensland Reds at end of season and he is being linked to Ireland role.

He'd be good.

borders- good point about treatment mcgahan got and penney is now recieving from some wtrs. it is of course similar to what kidney is getting and what mcgahan got was worse and a disgrace.

i think munster in particular(dont know much about other provinces ) had a winning culture already established at thomond against touring sides which the pro side bought into and built on. imo it was that foundation that instilled belief in a team to go on further and take on teams away. of course great players coming through helped greatly to sustain that period for the length that it lasted.

im not looking to blame everyone for the sad ending to kidneys career. at the end of the day he has one 1 grand slam, 1 churchill cup, 1 u19s world cup, 2 hec, 1 magners and irb coach of the year so he doesnt need me to defend him.
he is not responsible for the injury crisis though or some of the other things he has been blamed for. his short term mistakes ( heaslip + jackson) will most likely imo be successes in the mid term. the gameplan for this 6ns was effective if not pretty but was poorly executed by players on too many occasions.
the shortage of quality players in positions like 3, 8, 10, 12 etc are not all his fault either although munsters share of blame can in many ways come back on him. the reality is that 3 of the 4 starting ths are niq, 2 of starting 8s are niq, 1 10 niq, another 36 and another 21, marshall is behind wallace for 12 at ulster, munsters is only home from a long journey, etc.

the provincez and team ireland are not working together for a common goal. im not sure what is answer in that regard because i know that none of us would want to lose our niqs for the greater good. the support base is also divided between the 4 provinces. players in blue or red can do no wrong but the opposing province players are the problem. how long would schmidt get before the knives were out up north and down south or even west. phatguerilla has already expressed concern about ruddocks possibility of blue eyes. this is irelands rugby environment. is it different elsewhere. i dont no but probably not.

it doesnt take away from the results of course it doesnt but there is a much bigger picture here which wont go away with a change of coach. i wish him well whoever he is!

i notice noone has mentioned cheika! why not? he won a hec too and if eddie is credited for laying foundation for gs then cheika deserves credit for leinsters success much as it pains me to say it.

rossie wrote: i meant the national team. we are not far off the english media and fans level of expectation and abuse when it fails to materialise. we also have a very strong club game which reinforces these veliefs and enflames anger.

we have no culture of success in this competition and no culture of success at international level yet our expectation levels dont reflect that. we have won two grandslams in our history. the current welsh team have won 3 in 7 yrs. wales have a culture of achievement at this level. we have never beaten the all blacks and never gotten beyond the qtr finals.

im not saying kidney should stay on, just that we as supporters should temper our expectations and our reaction to disapointment. some of the abuse and critisism being thrown at kidney and his coaches is disrespectful, iover the top and way too personal. he did after all deliver 1 of those grandslams when others failed to do so.

Rossie enough already please with trying to blame everyone else for Kidney's failure in your inimitable Munster way .

His failure is entirely of his own making. He had everything in place to deliver unparalleled success, the players, the structure for access to the players, the resources and apart from achieving a Grand Slam (the games of which I still can't bring myself to watch on DVD because of the paucity of any decent rugby), he has presided over a team which has steadily got worse and worse and the results back.

He completely failed (as he did with Munster) to implement any contingency planning for an ageing squad/ or even an injury hit one, much as his game management lacked any contingency planning for when things start to go wrong. That rests entirely at his door, not the Media and not the Supporters and not even the IRFU..

Far from being the victim of some coordinated campaign to oust him, the Irish Rugby media has cosseted him frankly from any serious criticism. The likes of Gerry Thornley who for a couple of decades was held up as a truly world class rugby journo has barely uttered a peep in criticism or barbed question as Nero fiddled and Rome burned, and he himself has been castigated (and probably rightly so) by Rugby supporters for not doing so (not criticising, but actually asking the hard questions). I won't even discuss the Conor George's of this world, a disgrace to sports journalism.

Frankly Kidney could be the nicest, most decent man to set foot on the planet Earth since Jesus Christ himself, but while here he is only being measured on his success or failure as the Irish Rugby coach (and rightly so) a role he chose to put himself forward for and take. He's been given more rope than the results over the last couple of seasons has warranted, and for me personally I think it's a disgrace that the IRFU extended his contract after the World Cup because the writing was on the wall even then (and I wasn't remotely alone at the time in being of that opinion.).

He alone is responsible for his performance as Coach, the suits at the IRFU for allowing him to continue when all evidence indicated a diminishing return...

With regards to O'Shea, it would take a miracle of biblical proportions for him to accept the Irish Job from those in charge of the IRFU. He's a professional, and he's been away from the crap that goes on in there for over a decade.

McCall might, but he's not the right man for the job. He failed i the same circumstances at Ulster, the role at Saracens is very different as they ignore the Salary Cap and top up their squad with South Africans...

I know there are restriction within the U-20 structure but I don't see Ruddock being a viable option, for me I'd want to see him back successfully in a club role before being considered.

And most of all if at all possible I really don't wan't anyone with any pre-existing association with 10/12 Lansdowne Road to take on the role from Kidney, I didn't want it after O'Sullivan and I definitely don't want it now. Schmidt would be worth some role if he wanted to, he's employed by Leinster and not been on the IRFU coaching gravy train. But there needs to be a new broom in to manage the changes that will see Ireland improve again or deliver remotely based on the talent that does exist our players have not suddenly become bad players...

rossie wrote: we are not far off the english media and fans level of expectation and abuse when it fails to materialise.

I don't think an expectation that we not finish behind Italy and Scotland when we provided both HEC finalists last May is unrealistic. Neither is the fact that we are at a very low place.

Lowest position in the IRB rankings since they started 10 years ago.

Worse 6 nations than those that preceded the firings of Gatland and EOS.

Coach in place for 5 years which is a very long time, even for rugby.


I think that the general view on Kidney is exasperation and sadness rather than vitriol. It may well (almost certainly will I reckon) come out in the wash that there were massive failings/targets imposed by the blazers that constrained him.

Equally his persistence with a string of Munster duds (Buckley, O'Leary, O'Driscoll) left him wide open to accusations of favouritism and meant many of the people who pay his wages - the paying spectators - weren't fully behind him. I reckon his favouring of these players was conservatism (we go with what we know) not Munsterism but it looked terrible.

rossie wrote: i meant the national team. we are not far off the english media and fans level of expectation and abuse when it fails to materialise. we also have a very strong club game which reinforces these veliefs and enflames anger.

we have no culture of success in this competition and no culture of success at international level yet our expectation levels dont reflect that. we have won two grandslams in our history. the current welsh team have won 3 in 7 yrs. wales have a culture of achievement at this level. we have never beaten the all blacks and never gotten beyond the qtr finals.

im not saying kidney should stay on, just that we as supporters should temper our expectations and our reaction to disapointment. some of the abuse and critisism being thrown at kidney and his coaches is disrespectful, iover the top and way too personal. he did after all deliver 1 of those grandslams when others failed to do so.

We won't develop a culture of success if we continue to accept the mediocrity and wastefulness of the last few campaigns. The game is professional and therefore results driven.

Before 2005, Wales hadn't won anything of note for years. Munster had no culture of success / competitiveness outside Ireland before 2000 but as a result of their competitiveness with top teams over 8 or so years we've seen sections of the Munster support turn on McGahan and Penney (using the same rationale as Kidney getting abused) for not delivering the results they expect.

I really think you are overegging the abuse Kidney is getting Rossie. I haven't seen Kidney get any real abuse. People are questioning his decision making which I think is fair enough. Stuff written in papers (especially by the likes of Conor George and these lads isn't taken seriously by anyone) and stuff written on message boards should be taken with a pinch of salt.

i meant the national team. we are not far off the english media and fans level of expectation and abuse when it fails to materialise. we also have a very strong club game which reinforces these veliefs and enflames anger.

we have no culture of success in this competition and no culture of success at international level yet our expectation levels dont reflect that. we have won two grandslams in our history. the current welsh team have won 3 in 7 yrs. wales have a culture of achievement at this level. we have never beaten the all blacks and never gotten beyond the qtr finals.

im not saying kidney should stay on, just that we as supporters should temper our expectations and our reaction to disapointment. some of the abuse and critisism being thrown at kidney and his coaches is disrespectful, iover the top and way too personal. he did after all deliver 1 of those grandslams when others failed to do so.

rossie wrote: why wud schmidt, o shea or mc call want it? you wud want to be mad to take it on. they have all got good jobs without any of the baggage the irish job has. we have made it as bad a job as the english football managers job for christs sake.

Hmm I'd agree its not a tempting proposition at present but its hardly like managing an English soccer team where managers come and go like buses at some clubs.

Eddie got from late 2001 to 2008, Kidney from 2008 to 2013. In the meantime all the other 6 nations teams have had more head coaches at the helm as have New Zealand, Australia and South Africa basically every serious rugby nation in the world.

Both Irish coaches have been given more than a fair chance and have only been / will only be moved on when it is completely obvious that they didn't have the wherewithal or new ideas to move the team forward.

Ireland needed a fresh face after the 2007 world cup calamity, it was the end of a life cycle, The 4 year deal prior to the world cup didn't help but Eddie got the 2008 6 nations to prove himself which just compounded a bad situation.

Kidney's time was up certainly by the end of the 2012 6 nations but he was given until the end of his contract to turn things around. He's been unlucky with injuries but he's dug his own grave as far as I'm concerned. He's working with a limited squad without doubt but while his tactics were effective while the ELV's were introduced around 2009 and prior to that while he had a good pack at Munster with good half backs which meant they could be successful with limited 10 man rugby with a sprinkling of quality in the backs in the case of Tipoki and Howlett, subsequently the game has passed him by and we are stuck playing a mix and match of a game with no real cohesion, structure or plan B. He also failed to recruit in positions which were needed. You can't have coaches double jobbing at this level.

These lads are paid €350,000 a year (going by reports) for 10-12 matches most seasons, pressure goes with the job and has to go with the job. Same applies in England, France, Wales. If Wales had been on the wrong end of the tight game in Paris in round 2 Howley would have been under immense pressure. Martin Johnson won the 2011 championship but a few months down the road the iconic figure of English rugby for a decade was binned after what was a disappointing but hardly disastrous world cup. Gatland was under pressure during the middle of the 2011 6 nations despite their 08 success and the fact he was blooding new players.

The Irish fans are extremely patient. I'd be more worried if people didn't care and started to drift away from matches. The whole Irish rugby pyramid depends on the success / competitiveness of the national side, Kidney has failed to deliver the required results since 2009 and if he was given a new deal you can't realistically say that you'd expect things to get any better. We haven't the players to be successful but we need a coach who can mould them into a competitive side.

Kidney has had his chance, had good days and bad, he's still hugely respected as a person for what he achieved with Munster and his early days with Ireland but time moves on and we need to look forward.

why wud schmidt, o shea or mc call want it? you wud want to be mad to take it on. they have all got good jobs without any of the baggage the irish job has. we have made it as bad a job as the english football managers job for christs sake.